Please prove your assessment that the average height of the ancient Hebrews were only 5 or so. Best wishes and God bless. The fact that his coat of chain mail was 125 pounds alone Now Im sure there are some of us that could put that on our shoulders, but do you think you can fight like that? Since we are only given the height of Goliath (and as this article points out, there are two different recordings of his height), it is not possible to know if he was the tallest or if someone else was taller. Im seeking which may be the original reading. One such prehistoric serpentine mound is Serpent Mound in Ohio. Scripture indicates that there were giants on the earth in those days and also afterwards. Thank you for your kind words Dr. Marcus. The narrative of Num 13 implies that ten spies concocted a Dont go in the woods! type of scare-tactic, fear-mongering tall tale. 5 total brothers as David knew when he killed Goliath that Goliaths brothers would come after him. Look at Robert Wadlow (the one mentioned who was 8 feet, 11.1 inches tall at last measurement). . That certainly could be a possibility. At its center is a mound of loose stones over 65 feet in diameter and over 16 feet tall, covering a central chamber carved into solid rock. HIs intentional corruption of the word Bethlehemite should be plain to see. Calvary Chapel York Hi Andre, God bless, Ask yourself, is it possible that Goliaths parents, being good Philistines and giving Goliath a Philistine name, would give his brother the name Lahmi? The purpose of Gilgal Refaim is still a mystery and the focus of scholarly debate. Look at guys like Shaq whos a little over 7. Calvary Chapel Cork Some argue against the 4 cubits and a span reading by saying if Saul was head and shoulders taller than anyone else in Israel, and the average Israelite was 5 feet. Although I have always been inclined toward the reading of the MT, as noted above, I must admit that Hays presents some strong arguments. That is why the most reliable witness of it would seem to be 1 Chron. So.. We should allow the same for ancient peoples and their languages. I can see that being a temptation to Lahmis parents. No one knows everything. Then define ancient. 1Sam. and they can be found all over the world. I propose what we should do to put this into perspective, is not consider it a beauty pageant but a spiritual metaphor. May God bless you all with so much unwavering faith..!!! They are also evil, blood thirsty monsters. Im not saying the giants were 30 ft. tall but Im also not saying only a foot or so taller. Then, approximately 700 years later the Chronicler came along and tried to harmonize the conflicting stories of Goliaths demise found in 1 Sam. we dont have to rationalize the term to fit our sensibilities. You are going on supposition here, not hard proven evidence. The Book of Enoch is quite explicit about the fact that the original Nephilim i.e., the ones that appeared prior to the flood were the children of rebellious angels and human women. At 6 feet tall, my own span measures 8 3/10 inches. Goliath my not have been 30 ft tall but he was definitely the normal size of a man. I am also taking into consideration the average height of the time and the fact that no large skeletons have yet (and I emphasize yet) been uncovered through archaeology. Which is interesting because its the length of the Ark. Based on Genesis 14:13, which describes a fugitive (Palit) who told Abram about Lots capture, Jewish tradition teaches that Og was alive in the time of Noah but escaped the flood by clinging to the side of the Ark. But alas, this writing only includes and refers to a certain location and peoples, not USA or Hawaiian Islands, H. I. The Septuagint (LXX) has frequently been shown to have a more original reading in various places in the Old Testament. The most important difference is their impressive height. 3:11. This chart is more of percentile sizes between characters than actual set heights. It might be interesting to note that one of Davids men killed as the scriptures say 2 lion of men and a lion in a snow storm then mention the killing of an Egyptian 5 cubits in height. I agree with you. I have done a good amount of studying on this subject and would just love to go back and forth with someone and what not. For example, the royal cubit in Egypt was 20.65 inches, while in Babylonia it was 19.8 inches (Clyde E. Billington, GOLIATH AND THE EXODUS GIANTS: HOW TALL WERE THEY?, JETS, 50/3, 2007, pp. Learn how your comment data is processed. Even though they were not blood related, the Israelites also shared some common characteristics with Canaanite people (even intermarrying with some!). Hes big on both fronts, and more likely the way Goliath was. 56,899 Views. The things you site in your comments (Wall of China, South America, etc) are not evidence for people of that height. I have no problem with those who want to assert that Goliath was 9 ft. tall. Simply that we are often too hasty in our judgment of what is going on in the text. We may never know. Could the later manuscripts have inflated the number because the cubit of their day was calculated smaller (thus needing to increase the cubit in the manuscript)? Nuriel The Angel of Hailstorms and Spellbinding, Transcendental Meditation Vs Mindfulness Meditation. Which span of years were our bones from to compare? Neanderthal fossils lack the predominant chin of humans and a last set of molars. Thanks for your comment. Yes, I agree that people in Scripture have more than one name. Thanks for your comment and question. Thank you Jamie. Shortly thereafter she became pregnant with a child and named him Lahmi., Funny stuff Greg. even allegorically this would not make sense. No less a scholar than David G. Firth argues in his Apollos Commentary on 1&2 Samuel that it can be shown that the Chronicles text form is earlier (p. 508, note on v. 19). Since Gath can also be considered a border town. Goliath had 3 relatives later killed not sure their height was recorded. Billington disagrees with Hays on the height of Goliath, believing instead that Goliath is in the 8 foot range. The Bible DOES NOT say he is from Gob only that is where the battle took place and where Elhanan slew him. In my article I do point out that 2 Sam. It is clear that 2 Sam. And that is the Golan.The Book of Enoch, an apocryphal second-century BCE source attributed to the great-grandfather of Biblical Noah, describes the Nephilim and claims the name of Mount Hermon is derived from the Hebrew word cherem, meaning to be banished. According to the Book of Enoch, the Nephilim were banished from heaven and sent to earth at Mount Hermon. God bless! I find this very interesting because the bible is dealing with truth and not politics. Interesting reading, but just nope. They have some physical differences, but those are not that easy to spot. Mostly through Patterns of Evidence and a YouTube video I saw when he talked about the need to revise Egyptian chronology. 17:5 He had a helmet of bronze on his head, and he was armed with a coat of mail, and the weight of the coat was five thousand shekels of bronze. Anakim were the descendants of Anak. If someone was say 4 feet taller? Only by examining the evidence, which includes the height of people in the ancient world, the relative lengths of a cubit and span, and the textual evidence for the most reliable reading, will we be be able to come to a conclusion that seems plausible. Hi Ajam, Now imagine if he is the top fighter with the best weapons and armour? Saul disobeyed what God told him to do so he feared his life before this giant Champion of war but David was anointed with oil by the Prophet Samuel and Devil being only a youth of approximately 17 years of age was tested by God to prove his faith in God with a Shepherds sling as most left handed Benjamites therefore convinciby David how God would stand with him giving David a righteous indignation against Goliaths defying God in the face of Israel. The Bible describes the Nephilim in several places, Landa said. I know that some things in the bible are hard to grasp and I know the desire is to defend these issues in the modern world that believes the bible to be myth and fairytale. Being a veteran myself, I cant imagine being scared enough of a man only 1.5 taller than I am(63) that i wouldnt fight him. Please see my response to Andre. This is just one of the many problems with the story of David and Goliath. Maybe the later manuscripts had to update a change in cubit length? However, this sounds more like some of the conspiracy theories you read on the web. I would agree that it seems we are trying to rationalize what we do not want to believe here with the 6ft. The Israelite Diet: What Did the Ancient Israelites Eat? No, with the four categories of giant the Bible gives, Goliath was merely regarded as a giant, but not a true one. WebMany texts have confirmed Goliath as a Nephilim. Brothers and sisters, when we read a headline that reads, Warriors annihilate Rockets in Game 6, we dont actually think that one basketball team committed violence against another. Archaeologists generally God bless, Amazing Results of Sandalwood Powder for Acne Scars, 3 Methods to Use Shea Butter for Acne Scars. What does the grass hopper claim illustrate. The region, known as the Bashan, is where Og the king came out against the Israelites at the time of their entrance into the Promised Land. Different psychics and mediums claim that they can recognize Nephilim and people with Nephilim ancestry. there is no reason why he would have feared him. Two spans are usually considered to make a cubit, although they are in fact a little short of a cubit. Like a cubit, the length of a span depends on the size of the person. If you are asking who the tallest man in the Bible is, its difficult to say because the Bible does not tell us. Lets start with Genesis 6:4 in one of the Modern versions, the NIV: Genesis 6:4 The Nephilim were on the earth in those daysand also afterwardwhen the sons of God went to the daughters of humans and had children by them. No I believe he was 9 foot plus as even today we have 8 foot plus people and they are not descendants of Giants just hyperthyroid cases mostly.t. Naturally, this view requires seeing the giant clans encountered in the conquest as physical descendants of the Nephilim ( Num. WebThe most notable feature of the Nephilim is their colossal size, with some measuring between 15 to 20 feet (4,5 to 6 meters) in height, although there is evidence of Nephilim up to 328 or 656 feet (100 or 200 meters) in height, Thank you, Randy. And why 5 smooth stones and not 4 if Goliath has 3 other brothers and not 4? When the Spirit-inspired writers of the Scriptures used hyperbole, they are emphasizing a point just as we do today. Knowing that the sons of God had sexual relations with the human race, that of course I mean the women. Some Giants are as tall as the trees of Lebanon and those trees are described here as 130 tall Cedrus libani, commonly known as the cedar of Lebanon or Lebanon cedar, is a species of cedar native to the mountains of the Eastern Mediterranean basin. 4. In the apocryphal book of Enoch, I think some are given names, but I'm pretty sure Leviathan, Behemoth, and Goliath are not them. The name Jaare-Oregim is incorrect and the Oregim has been accidentally copied from the statement of the weavers beam later in the verse. In the Book of Enoch it speaks to 450 tall. God bless! Associates for Biblical Research. Your response is excellent. If the LXX was accepted by the early church (and it was! Hi Randy Michael Heiser in his book, The UnSeen Realm, points out that Ogs bed size may actually be a reference to the Babylonian god Marduk whose bed was described by these same dimensions. The fact that 4QSam(a) is earlier than the MT and that it, and Chronicles, and the LXX, always agree with each other whenever there is a variant is compelling. You and others in the blog have sparked my interest. And even then, not every nation that came from Ham were giants. Second, there are some that take Elhanan to be the one who killed Goliath, but an equally valid, and in my view correct, assessment is that words were accidentally left out of the Samuel text. Im 62 and used to work for a man who was 67, I wouldnt like to get in a fight with him. I dont know about the discovery of people in the 7ft+ range in the US, but no such discoveries have been made in the Middle East to this point. The well-known problems of scribal errors in the MT of Samuel also contributes to this, as does the fact that parablepsis is a plausible argument for how the reading got changed. - You can at least wait for the dev to program the other stats into the game. There is quite reasonably going to be a mixture of Philistine and Judean and Canaanite cultures. Thank you for your very kind and encouraging words! I dont have an answer to your question (its a good one!) November 11, 2018 People with Giantism average 8.5 feet tall or greater. Saul was a head taller than the other Israelites. Semyaza, Shemyaza, Semjaza, Semiaza, Samyaza, Shemhazai. Furthermore, 2 Samuel 21:15-22 relates four stories of Philistines who are killed by Davids men. Depending on the size of an individual, the common cubit would be even less than the royal cubit. You mention that the word giant is not mentioned in 1 Samuel 17. Each one is said to be related to the giant (the word is rapha which is the singular of Rephaim). The point of the article is to examine Scripture and see where the evidence leads. Thank you Mark. Hi Dave, Whether this is the correct explanation or not, I cant say for sure, but my point is that there are other explanations for the size of Ogs bed and the reference may not be to his stature. This theory is an attempt to do away with what the Bible says. You find out in Chapter 14 of Numbers as well as Chapter 13 of Numbers that the report given was a bad/evil report. Ps. mydigitalseminary And that would really only be a dog vs man height to a man vs someone that was as tall as a man vs a dog. This second figure seems impossibly low for a giant like Goliath and we might be tempted to automatically throw it out as a possibility. This would have allowed the site to be used to predict the beginning of the rainy season, a very important survival skill. David said he killed a bear so that God would deliver this uncircumcised philistine into his hand. First, the word Nephilites or Nephilim, which some Bible scholars translate as "giants." nef'-i-lim (nephilim): This word, translated "giants" in the King James Version, but retained in the Revised Version (British and American), is found in two passages of It is clear that 2 Sam. 2) Such a claim is based on him having been subjectively unusually tall and the claim that Nephilim were unusually tall. There are still diverse details about his height. The tallest man I believe is 89. The writers of the New Testament quoted from it frequently. Also, nowhere does it state in 2 Samuel that the person they are talking about is Goliath. Also, I dont read anywhere in the Bible where king Saul (6+ feet tall) was referred to as a giant so I dont see why the Israelites would call Goliath a giant if he was only 6 in a half feet tall or thereabouts. Thanks for your comments. The tallest Nephilim are found in low-gravity environments; since their extreme height makes them unstable, the tallest There is not a few thousand years between the Hebrew text and the LXX. The first and most transparent explanation is that divine beings came to earth, assumed human flesh, cohabited with human women, and spawned unusual offspring known as Nephilim. In fact, I have done a study on giants and found out there are 4 categories. Check out the work of David Rohl. Being he was an Egyptian you might use the Egyptian cubit of 18 to 20. Of course, they might also choose to adopt a Philistine name such as Goliath.The Anakim are also said by the biblical writer to have remained in Gaza, in Gath, and in Ashdod (Josh. Your email address will not be published. its really nice to read articles written by a true follower of Jesus. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andr%C3%A9_the_Giant, https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Great_Khali, https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Wadlow, https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Rogan. Lines in South America can only be fully realized from an airplane. I am willing to bet the evidence for this wont be there. . The fossils indicate they were substantially more muscled, including the children. If some come to light that would be fascinating. Landas search for the truth also brought him to Gilgal Refaim (Wheel of the Giants), an enigmatic rock formation in the Golan. Thanks for your response. For example, consider the following two passages: Enoch 6:1-2: 1. Here, this is the best list I could find: 1. My point in this article is not to come up with the most logical explanation in the sense that I doubt what the Bible teaches. Maybe the later manuscripts were compensating for this? The Chronicles account only helps to clear up the confusion. 489-508). But I must admit that the other is, because Im used to the readings found in the MT (which admittedly is not a good reason). This was interesting and I agree with Hays to a point on this. Just like modern day basketball players. by manipulating the text to falsely state that Elhanan did not kill Goliath but his brother Lahmi. Thanks for your comments Mark. The bigger a person becomes, the harder it is on their organs. Since the average height in the ancient Near East was between 5 feet and 53, and since archaeology seems to confirm this (at least to this point), and since the textual evidence leans toward the reading of 4 cubits and a span, I conclude that Goliath was most probably on the taller side of the 6-foot range, as opposed to the 9-foot range of the MT. document.getElementById( "ak_js_1" ).setAttribute( "value", ( new Date() ).getTime() ); This site uses Akismet to reduce spam. Thanks again for writing. When reading the verse you are attacking and yes you are calling Gods word into question, it seems pretty clear. For example, as Im sure youre aware, a potsherd has been discovered in Gath with letters that resemble the name Goliath (also noted in an article on this blog about Philistine cities). Thus the Rapha are a semitic people and it would not be unusual for some to use Semitic names even though living among the Philistines. 3:1-11). I have attempted to answer the Giant means giant comment made. They are Giants! Check out LA Marzuli and youll see 61-9 is not Goliaths height. We present the evidence and we invite people to research to reach their own conclusions, Landa said. I just found your blog and I appreciate your writing and care for the Word. Hays internal evidence includes examining the text which involves a discussion of Goliaths armor and the fact that he is never mentioned as a giant. Males averaged about 1m 75 cm; females 1m 60 cm, Neanderthals were considerably stronger and tougher. The point of this article is to discuss one small (pun intended) point of the story. If your reference is regarding Firths point. Not by rolling on treesCarried by huge men. The Nephilim are referenced in Genesis and Numbers and are possibly referred to in Ezekiel. That doesnt mean the solution reached in this paper is the correct solution for every apparent contradiction. It is also amazing to me that the basic reading at any level of understanding leads us to Gods central message to His people, difficult differences in culture notwithstanding. In their insatiable hunger, the monstrous Nephilim eat all of mankind's food, and when the food runs out, Others, however, raised on the traditional story of David defeating the giant Goliath, would almost consider it a sacrilege to suggest that Goliath might be in the 6 foot range, as opposed to the 9 foot range. Goliath had much experience in war trainings a very tall man as a giant in Israel interpretations but true that King Saul was head and shoulders over every man stating he was just a tall man but with Goliath a GIANT. We seek out actual proof, the traces and clues that are out there in the world, and not just the faith-based claims. I would take exception with a few things in your statement. 1. The most convincing to me include what he calls the external evidence. This concerns the textual evidence. folklore comes from historical basis. It would be like 80 trees or more to feel like that. He changed the text to create a brother for Goliath so he could give credit to Elhanan for his death. I have written an article (which can be found on this blog) which was published by Bibliotheca Sacra (July-Sept. 2015) entitled How Many Sons Did Absalom Have? Interestingly, the bible, the Tamid and the Finally, in spite of all of the fantastic (trick) photography on the internet, no remains of people who were 9-10 feet tall have ever been found in the Middle East. A fascinating read. How does someone reach the conclusion that the average man was 55? Joshua 15:13 states Arba was the forefather of Anak.. Unfortunately, he doesnt offer any evidence. If Goliath was but 4 cubit that would mean david didnt slay the tallest man in the world. Giants are not folklore. Some quick calculations make Goliaths height, according to the MT, to be about 8 feet 9 inches (8.875), and according to 4QSam(a) and the LXX to be about 6 feet 1 inch (6.125). The statement that we seemed as grasshoppers in their sight is intended to emphasize the difference in height and possible strength, but it is hyperbole also. But the nephilim from The Bible should not be alive today, because they were all killed by Archangel Gabriel before the flood. If he was taller than Wadlow, then he too would have also outgrew his nervous system just as Wadlow did, meaning like Wadlow he wouldnt have been able to walk without a cane. His most popular height estimate is 164cm which people often use in non game based height charts and his datamined height was around that mark as well 162cm. Keeping in mind we do not know which cubit was being used, it seems to me that the evidence favors 4 cubits. However that Anakim were descendants of Nephilim and that Nephilim were usually tall (and that Nephilim existed post-flood in the first place, for that matter) all comes from one single verse: an evil report (Num 13, see vss. For some, a person 99 is out of the realm of reality, and they would therefore be inclined to the more reasonable reading of 6 9 61. Therefore we have, in almost all current versions of the bible we read today, an inflated height for Goliath. 9+ feet would indeed be a giant. I guess thats how David killed him, he just knocked his cane out from him, and he fell over, since no one over 8 feet tall today can walk without a cane! If you have done any archaeological work yourself, or if you have some credible archaeological sources that refute this stat, I would certainly be interested in knowing about those sources. Different times and different cultures often result in a different way of assessing things. To give you some comparison the Great Pyramids of Egypt are approximately 449.5 feet tall. Thanks for your response. So, my point: Using 25 inches as the baseand calculating 4 cubits and a span, we have around 109 inches (just around 9 feet). Extremely tall human clade. Shorter still, being between 8 & 99. And to wield a spear with a 15 pound head on it. There are theories that claim that Og was buried at Gilgal Refaim, Landa said. In the end, what matters is that faith in, and zealousness for, YeHoVaH will lead us to victory and keep us humble: the battle always belongs to Him. What is interesting about the inscription is that the letters used are Hebrew/Canaanite letters. Saul is said to be head and shoulders above everyone else. How an a soldier fight if they cant hardly walk? And it came to pass when the children of men had multiplied that in those This verse predates David and Goliath right? The average height of people in the ANE, based on what Ive read, is based on the bones that have been uncovered. Average height of Jewish men in David's time is said to be about 5 feet tall. And their souls became the Demons that we all know today, the evil spirits tormenting humankind. The NIV uses the word Nephilim. My problem with the baseline assessment is it is entirely based on the average height of a man from the ancient world being 55. Im always willing to post opposing views. Hays says that a scribe copying the manuscript accidentally looked down at verse 7 and saw the number 6 (as in six hundred) and copied it into verse 4. If you click on the links in my article you will find the information you are requesting. The Bible makes it crystal clear that Goliath is not a giant. The later scribes werent trying to inflate the story; they simply had to update the cubits since the length had changed since the older manuscripts were written. . Unless some new manuscript discovery is found by the archaeologists spade, we will never be able to reconstruct what this text actually said. Keep up the good work. My desire is to examine the text and to the best of my ability to understand which reading is the most likely. Our tool can measure up to 10,000 meters, thats about 32,808.4 feet! We arent dogmatic and dont hide anything. the gauls were about a foot taller than the Romans and the Romans didnt run away from conquering Gaul. We are never given the measurements of any Nephilim (We are told the size of King Ogs bed in Deut. Others, however, believe it is related to the Hebrew word "naphal," meaning "to . Clyde E. Billington, GOLIATH AND THE EXODUS GIANTS: HOW TALL WERE THEY?,, Descendants of the Nephilim in Genesis 14, https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andr%C3%A9_the_Giant, https://www.biblestudywithrandy.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/10-The-Savior_The-Lord-Almighty-Reigns.m4a. I totally agree. Moonchild What are the Nephilim in the Bible? A few thousand years later, when the average height of a man had increased, the original height of the mythological Goliath was inadequate. They are Giants! 2. Not a perfect example, but still appropriate. Its a fascinating study and one that nicely demonstrates how the bible has been changed over time. Please continue writing. Today we would think anyone taking every statement we make literally as either not being very discerning or having a poor grasp of the rules of grammar. It could even conceivably involve the use of names from a bordering culture. The concept of Nephilim still leaving among us today comes mostly from the spiritual community.
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